New Macross Class

This board is for the discussion of MRC based Macross Stats, and new weapons and Mecha.

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Postby wolfzero » Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:50 pm

Since the New Macrosss class is the next SDF class does it get to be the SDF-03. Since the SDF-02 was the Megaroad, does it make the New Macross Class 01 the SDF-03?

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Postby Promeus Sadona » Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:22 pm

...I think they give out the number designation for an SDF-type ship on a "first come, first serve" basis: first, you had the original SDF-1, then the SDF-2 they were building on the moon, so the first Megaroad they built after that would've been the SDF-3.

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Postby apeman007 » Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:49 am

Uhm... SDF-2 and Megaroad-01 are two different vehicles. Components of the unbuilt (yet started to be built) SDF-1 were appropriated and used in the construction of the Megaroad-01 after the end of SW1 when the UNS changed its long-term plan from planetary defense to long-range colonization missions. Thereafter, there was no more SDF class vehicles made.

look to the applicable thread in the general discussion forum for more details.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: apeman007 on 2004-09-22 21:45 ]</font>

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Postby wolfzero » Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:54 pm

How is that when it says SDF-02 Megaroad 01?
So the first New Macross Class would have been the SDF-03 New Macross Class 01. If there is a link you have to clear this up could you post it.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: wolfzero on 2004-09-24 22:56 ]</font>

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Postby apeman007 » Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:27 pm

Where's your evidence that it's the SDF-02 Megaroad-01?

Aside from the unclear statments on the Macross Compendium, there's nothing else out there.

The "Macross Flashback 2012" best hit series book doesn't make any mention of the title "SDF-2" on page 56 where it has the Megaroad-01. It simply says "New Style Immigration Ship Megaroad (video version.)"


As it is unclear if Wolfzero found the link I refered to earlier, here it is.

The images in questions are found here. The two images are NOT to scale and this page has mistakenly called the Megaroad-01 the SDF-2.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: apeman007 on 2004-09-24 23:34 ]</font>

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Postby Ogawa » Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:21 pm

If I recall correctly, Macross VO uses the term SDF-3 interchangeably with Megaroad-02. However, that will require fact checking, since I'm going off of memory there.

That would support Megaroad-01 being SDF-2. Again, however, it needs fact checking against VO, which I don't have copy of.

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Postby apeman007 » Fri Oct 22, 2004 8:50 pm

Macross VO? What's the VO stand for?

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Postby Ogawa » Sat Oct 23, 2004 7:32 pm

VO was a 'flight sim' game released in Japan a while back. Its the story of the flight group on Megaroad 02 (which is a normal-sized fortress, rather than the giant FB2012 type), and last I checked its an official product.

A decent amount of information about it is located at This Site

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Postby apeman007 » Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:00 am

http://www.angelfire.com/mac/mvo/story.htm states:
“In 2012 the second Macross class space ship, Megaroad 01, was launched as part of the first super-long-range colonization fleet. Two years later, construction of the third Macross class ship, Megaroad 02, was completed. Megaroad 02 was assigned as the flag ship to the second super-long-range space colonzation fleet.”


http://www.angelfire.com/mac/mvo/missions.htm simply says: “Survival of the player as well as the mothership (Megaroad 02) are standard objectives required for all missions.”


Aside from the picture, there is nothing that states that the Megaroad 01 and 02 are the SDF-2 and SDF-3. (It does state that they are the 2nd and 3rd Macross class ships.)




The Macross Compendium does mention Macross VO, but it doesn’t give any inclination regarding it’s authenticity and effect on the timeline.

The 2010-2012 chronology states:
“June, 2010: At the Lunar surface's Apollo Base, the half-constructed SDF-2 is renamed Megaroad-01, and construction resumes as a colonization ship.”

“Sept., 2012: Megaroad-01 launches as [part of] the first long-distance colonization fleet. Construction of mass-produced super-long-distance colonization ships Megaroad-02 and -03 based on the Megaroad. Hereafter, one or two super-long-distance colonization ships are constructed yearly.”


The 2013-2039 Chronology states only:
“2014 - Launches of the second and third super-long-distance colonization fleet (Megaroad-02 and -03 ships). Hereafter, super-long-distance colonization fleets are routinely launched.”



Aside from the mention of the SDF-02 being recycled as parts for the Megaroad-01, I can’t find any other references to an SDF-02 or SDF-03. I’m tempted to interpret either:

  • The game takes place in an alternate universe were SDF class ships in addition to Megaroad class ships were produced. (In the standard timeline, this doesn’t occur because refurbished Zentraedi ships are used and are easier to produce.)
  • The game is in the official universe, however it uses only the Megaroad type ship (thus, the game contradicts itself.)


Either way, it does offer some clues into some possible events in that time period.

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Postby Ogawa » Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:28 pm

Since the "shorthand" designation for Megaroad-02 in the game is SDF-3 (IE what shows up in the HUD, rather than MR-2 or something like that) I'd make the assumption that the HULL NUMBER, of Megaroad-01 and -02 follow the SDF numbers.

Its important to remember that SDF-1 is only the name of the ship in Robotech. In Macross the ship's name is... well... Macross, and its -hull number- is SDF-1.

From Macross Compendium...
The Super Dimension Fortress Macross VO
Microsoft Windows 98/Me [Japanese] compatible CD-ROM game
3D shooting game
One to eight players (versus battle)
Features Standalone mode (single-player training), Campaign mode (single-player mission-based storyline), and Network mode (multi-player online combat)
Network combat (via free Internet server) supported
Features VF-1 Valkyrie (customized in Campaign mode)
CPU: 400 MHz Pentium II or higher (600 MHz Pentium III or higher recommended)
Memory: 64MB or higher (96 MB or higher recommended)
Graphic: DirectX 7.0 compatible 3D graphics board with 8 MB VRAM (16 MB VRAM or higher and Hardware T&L recommended)
Hard Disk: To be determined
CD-ROM Drive: To be determined
Audio: DirectX 7.0 compatible PCM source
Other Requirements: DirectX 7.0 compatible system, communication equipment necessary for network combat (56000 bps speed or higher)
Include B2-size storefront color poster and Nichimo 1/200 VF-1S Battroid/GERWALK Valkyrie model set (initial limited version only)
Bothtec
2001 June 22
Y7800


so its definitely an official product. I assume that the storyline elements are absent from the Macross Compendium timeline because (from the sound of the VO fansite) no critical plot points occur that merit Egan spending time playing a computer game =)


“June, 2010: At the Lunar surface's Apollo Base, the half-constructed SDF-2 is renamed Megaroad-01, and construction resumes as a colonization ship.”


Again, I think we're misinterpreting what the name of the ship was. SDF-2 was named Megalord (or 'megaload' if you want to trust Kevin Simbieda's translator). So, the ship whose hull number is SDF-2 was indeed renamed Megaroad-01.

Ug, ranting again, let me try to be more concise.

- I believe that VO is part of the official continuity, with the normal "Game Caveat" (IE where gameplay issues, such as the infamous unlimited missiles in many games, contradicts canon, canon wins out)

- The Megaroads are Super Dimension Fortresses, like the Macross, even if their hull are not always of the exact same size and dimensions. Hence, the ship formerly known as Megalord, even though it was converted to the gigantic Megaroad-01, is still going to have the hull number SDF-2. Logically following, Megaroad-02 is going to be hull number SDF-3.

- Megaroad-02, even though it seems to be built as a Megalord/Macross type hull, can still be a "Megaroad type" if it still fulfills all the mission requirements. Ships of the scale of Megaroad-01 would be hugely expensive to build, even with the aid of the factory satellite, so its not unbelievable that not every long range colony ship would be of the largest type.

Do I make any sense, or am I still sounding crazy?

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Postby Corwyn » Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:03 pm

Yes, that makes sense in a way that I don't think there was a standard blueprint to go by. Given the time and expenses it takes to draft the blueprints, I imagine that no two ships were alike in the begining. I'm not referrint to the living areas, just the ship function areas.

Just like there's a lot of variances in automobiles, there are still the same basics and requirements. But new construction ideas, breakthroughs, budget cuts and allowances would explain differences. But as long as they all maintain things like cruise duration, crew capacity, passengers...

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Postby araruin » Mon Oct 25, 2004 6:32 pm

I think Dave has the right idea here. The SDF is a hull-type designator akin to the ones that other classes of ships use for destroyers or cruisers or battleships. While there are several designs, they all still use similar designators for a classification of ship.

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Postby apeman007 » Tue Oct 26, 2004 5:48 am

I'd like to agree. However, by all appearances, the UNS did away with (or never really followed) a numerical classification of their ships. ALL of their craft listed in the compendium for the post-initial colonization years have a name. There is no 'Type 7' or 'Type 2' listed.


I would be inclined to agree that since the SDF-1 was designed to be the flagship of the fleet, and that other ships of similar class were produced (logic: transforming Macross type fortresses attached to the new-era colonization ships.) HOWEVER, I keep running into the wall of: post-SWI there definitely wasn't a lot of resources, and what limited resources were available were invested in mass cloning, cleaning and restocking Earth's flora and fauna, long-range colony missions AND refurbishing captured Zentraedi warships.


I do agree that it does take a long time, energy and resources to make the Megaroad colony vessels. I also agree that no two Megaroad type ships are 100% the same. However, arguements for both types:

- assembly line manufacturing allows for cheaper mass production to occur (so, the basic designs of the Megaroad ships remain the same, but the nitty-gritty details change on a ship-to-ship basis.)

- pictures of Earth orbit at the start of Macross 7 show other Megaroad/new macross colony class ships with similar but different designs. THe one that is most prominent looks like an elongated New Macross colony ship but with no armoured shield and features somewhat reminiscient of the Megaroad Colony ships.


Anyhow...

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Postby Ogawa » Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:05 am

I'd like to agree. However, by all appearances, the UNS did away with (or never really followed) a numerical classification of their ships. ALL of their craft listed in the compendium for the post-initial colonization years have a name. There is no 'Type 7' or 'Type 2' listed.


Actually, I think you'll find that all of the capitol ships which have had large exposure have hull numbers. For example, CV-404 Uraga, and so forth. The lack of hull numbers on cannon fodder units, and on classes which we've only heard mentioned peripherally is almost certainly due to a lack of detail in the official data rather than an absence of the feature.

I would be inclined to agree that since the SDF-1 was designed to be the flagship of the fleet, and that other ships of similar class were produced (logic: transforming Macross type fortresses attached to the new-era colonization ships.)


We may be misunderstanding each other. The "SDF-3" (IE Megaroad-02) as seen in VO is -not- a direct copy of the Megalord design, its just a smaller colony ship that uses the Megalord hull styling rather than the huge 'arc ship' layout of Megaroad-01.

Chances are that ALL of the Megaroads, at least in the early years, were going on the rolls classes as Fortresses, and consequently were getting SDF hull numbers.

That said, we've drifted from the topic of the New Macross hull numbers to the Megaroad hull numbers. Looking back at the original question, it seems clear to me that the New Macross class are NOT designated as SDFs (or at least their battle sections are not), since their hull numbers match the colony fleet numbers. By this logic, if they had SDF hull numbers, then New Macross 01 would re-use the SDF-1 hull number, which we know is still in service.

Given that the Valhalla type variable carriers receive "VCV" hull numbers in a high range (with the lead ship possibly being #500 or 550), its very possible that the New Macross variable carriers are also VCV, but their hull numbers start at #1 to match their parent ships.

Just a thought... anyway, I hope I cleared up any confusion as to what I was trying to say about the Megaroads and SDF hull numbers.

EDIT: Egan Loo's site seems to confirm that Megaroads are classed as Super Dimensional Fortresses note the "13 MEGAROAD class (SDF)" line

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ogawa on 2004-10-26 09:09 ]</font>

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Postby apeman007 » Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:22 pm

I’ve seen/heard those numbers as well. However, they appear to be applied with little regard to differences in different types of ship in the ‘same’ class. (Example: the escort carriers and the stealth carriers have the same alphanumeric numbering system.)

I disagree that the Megaroad-02 was of a smaller size. The link that you provided states clearly:

Complement: 80000 colonists


In addition, the link for the Ship states:

Complement: 20000; 58000 civilians (reduced to 56000 and then 40000 by attrition)


I believe that we are all in agreement that the city sections in the Macross Fortress were cramped (at least at the very beginning of the trip) and that it wasn’t designed for long-duration colonization missions (case in point: finite food supplies and no areas reserved for growing new food.) A Megaroad sized colony ship provides a lot of space for colonists to avoid each other in, and there are areas (probably in the city, or underneath it) reserved for growing food (hydroponics.)

The link to the Macross compendium only states that the first Megaroad Class ship has the number SDF-2. The other 3 listed do not.


I do agree that the New Macross (Variable) Carriers are not of the SDF line and probably of the VCV numbering (anyone seen any markings in screen-grabs?)


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: apeman007 on 2004-10-27 12:27 ]</font>

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Postby Ogawa » Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:48 pm

(Example: the escort carriers and the stealth carriers have the same alphanumeric numbering system.)

that's because the surviving ARMDs, the Stealth ARMDs, the Uraga-class, and the new type Stealth Carriers all use a common pool of hull numbers. Sort of like how US aircraft carriers, irrespective of class, are following a single line of numbers instead of starting again with a new class. I think if you look closely you'll find that there are no canon Uragas with hull numbers less than 404 and no canon Stealth ARMDs with hull numbers above 404.


I disagree that the Megaroad-02 was of a smaller size... I believe that we are all in agreement that the city sections in the Macross Fortress were cramped


Footage suggests that the interior of Macross was no more cramped than a typical (not-crazily-overpopulated) city, and that a large amount of 'overhead' room was not used with multiple layers of cityscape. Further, if Megaroad-02 is a "Megalord" type hull, it is 30% larger than Macross and is probably purpose-built to be a colony ship (ie more efficient use of space). 80,000 colonists seems very believable under those circumstances, even allowing room for population growth.


The link to the Macross compendium only states that the first Megaroad Class ship has the number SDF-2. The other 3 listed do not.


It also referes to the class as a whole as SDFs. Macross VO, an official product, lists the hull number of Megaroad-02 as SDF-3. It clearly depicts Megaroad-02 as a Macross or Megalord type hull (I'd need better screenshots to determine for sure which one it is).

I think the official evidence is clear, but your mileage may vary... I'm not really in an argumentative mood today, and this whole Megaroad argument is totally off-topic anyway.

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Postby apeman007 » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:57 am

that's because the surviving ARMDs, the Stealth ARMDs, the Uraga-class, and the new type Stealth Carriers all use a common pool of hull numbers. Sort of like how US aircraft carriers, irrespective of class, are following a single line of numbers instead of starting again with a new class...

It appears that I provided supporting evidence to your argument. It looks like I have to agree that the hull numbers *may* be in the SDF. I say *may*, because SDF = Super Dimensional Fortress. The Megaroad class ships (at least the very first one,) was anything BUT a fortress. (With all the clear material around the city section, it’s a wonder that a meteor strike or something like that doesn’t end a colony mission prematurely.)

Therefore, I’ll go so far as to agree that the hulls are numbered ‘SD’ but I disagree with the addition of ‘F.’


Footage suggests that the interior of Macross was no more cramped than a typical (not-crazily-overpopulated) city, and that a large amount of 'overhead' room was not used with multiple layers of cityscape. Further, if Megaroad-02 is a "Megalord" type hull, it is 30% larger than Macross and is probably purpose-built to be a colony ship (ie more efficient use of space). 80,000 colonists seems very believable under those circumstances, even allowing room for population growth.

I think that this is a case of the anime taking liberties with anime-magic. It’s impossible for the city sections in the Macross to be as spacious as they portrayed it to be (unless if a lot of what was seen was done a la smoke and mirrors – holographic and wall projections to make the inside look bigger then it really was.)

I can agree that if it’s a MegaLord hull type, that it would be more efficient in the city sections. However, the inside would be more akin to the city ‘Zeon’ in ‘Matrix 2 & 3.’ (Cramped, ugly looking and nothing like the cities of the here and now.)



Since the original question has been answered and this thread has taken on a life of its own, we might as well continue staying off topic…

There is a possibility that subsequent colony missions may have a Megaload ship based on refurbished, recycled and hastily strapped together Zentraedi hulls. (Think of it as a rather sophisticated raft of strapped together logs – the logs being cut in half and elevated so that there is a habitual gap between the two sections.) It wouldn’t be a pretty ship, but it would be easier to make then making a ship from scratch.) This, of course, would look nothing like any of the ships seen to date, and it’d be hard to determine a single hull number… (this is actually giving me an idea that may show up again in one of my games… serendipity, gotta love it.)

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Postby Ogawa » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:18 pm

I know I promised not to argue on this thread any more, but I just can't help myself <IMG SRC="/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

It looks like I have to agree that the hull numbers *may* be in the SDF. I say *may*, because SDF = Super Dimensional Fortress. The Megaroad class ships (at least the very first one,) was anything BUT a fortress... Therefore, I’ll go so far as to agree that the hulls are numbered ‘SD’ but I disagree with the addition of ‘F.’

Macross Compendium lists the Megaroad ships as SDFs. Macross VO lists Megaroad-02 as SDF-3. So, from a perspective of just consulting the original source material, I believe that the Megaroad ships used SDF hull numbers. My personal methodology on these things is to go with the official sources first, and then try to rationalize any gaps that are left over.

I think that this is a case of the anime taking liberties with anime-magic. It’s impossible for the city sections in the Macross to be as spacious as they portrayed it to be (unless if a lot of what was seen was done a la smoke and mirrors – holographic and wall projections to make the inside look bigger then it really was.)

I can agree that if it’s a MegaLord hull type, that it would be more efficient in the city sections. However, the inside would be more akin to the city ‘Zeon’ in ‘Matrix 2 & 3.’ (Cramped, ugly looking and nothing like the cities of the here and now.)


Somewhere out there, there's a cutaway of the Macross that shows how its interior space was used to house the rebuilt city. Everything seems to line up (3/4 of a mile long with lots of width and height is a lot of volume, after all). If I find the artwork, I'll link it.

As for a Megalord-hulled colony ship being more like the Zion Foundation, I agree. A smaller colony ship would not have the level of luxury seen on the 'arc ship' design or on the New Macross colony ships.

There is a possibility that subsequent colony missions may have a Megaload ship based on refurbished, recycled and hastily strapped together Zentraedi hulls. (Think of it as a rather sophisticated raft of strapped together logs – the logs being cut in half and elevated so that there is a habitual gap between the two sections.)

A refurbished Thuverl Salan, even without any changes to the exterior hull, could make an extremely good colony vessel... and a Nupetiet Vergnitzs would make a fine arc ship. However, at the same time we know from an official source (Macross VO), that Megaroad-02 was a MegaLord or Macross-shaped hull, and appears to have been built with earth OTM technology (which appears distinctly different in pretty much every instance from native Zentradi OT)

Anyway, that's my observations. I can see that both of use are getting into the old "You say your position, I say mine, then we repreat more or less the same points" tango, and while its great for boosting the post count it can eventually fray nerves of both people involved, so I'll leave my contribution to this thread at that =)

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Postby wolfzero » Sun Oct 31, 2004 7:10 pm

But wait didnt they name each SDF-02 Megaroad 01,02 and so on? but they did the same for the New Macross class also. So does that mean they just continued it from SDF-01 to SDF-99 or something?

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Postby Ogawa » Mon Nov 01, 2004 1:09 am

On 2004-10-31 18:10, wolfzero wrote:
But wait didnt they name each SDF-02 Megaroad 01,02 and so on? but they did the same for the New Macross class also. So does that mean they just continued it from SDF-01 to SDF-99 or something?


All official evidence seems to suggest that the Megaroads were SDF-2, SDF-3, SDF-4 and so forth, through SDF-14 for Megaroad-13. Because the hull numbers on the New Macross ships go back to 01 with NM-01 and so forth, its likely that they either reused the lower numbers (unlikely for a number of reasons that I'm way to semiconcious to discuss at length... but maybe tomorrow once I'm awake) or they switched to a different designation. Me and Ape were theorizing that it might be VCV (which is used on the other known UN Variable Carrier design)

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